Curse

You can't see me · Dec 14, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Is there anyone here that actually uses a bar that has one or more wind prayers skill in it? A lot of people complain about under rated attributes, but fail to mention this one.

What are your thoughts?

Stormlord Alex · Dec 14, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

I did, once.

It was a running build.

Yes, Wind Prayers are kinda bad. A bunch on unfocused buff-crap that just draws points out of Mysticism and Scythe Mastery without really doing anything of interest.

draxynnic · Dec 14, 2007, 03:07 AM // 03:07

If anything, a build based on the Margonite Reaper might be usable to relieve some of the pressure on the monks while still dishing out damage. It certainly seems to work for the Reapers - generally putting them around third on my kill order when fighting Margonite packs - but since it's not exactly a popular build, chances are people who've tried it found that it was something that worked for the mobs, but didn't work for the players.

Moonlit Azure · Dec 14, 2007, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Wind prayers, like wind in nature, lacks focus.

All I've seen is crippling attacks, running, and some other stuff. I can take those from the other 3 attributes and I'll still come out stronger.

Wind prayers need some love! <3

Terraban · Dec 14, 2007, 03:11 AM // 03:11

25% of the skills are running skills.
25% of the skills are self heals
25% of the skills are weak energy management.
25% of the skills are anti-kite.

None of these are really needed in PvE. Most of these are not worthwhile in PvP.

It is just a bunch of random skills, some of them could be useful, but either have too weak of an effect, or require too much investment to get anything out of them.

cellardweller · Dec 14, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

[skill]mystic healing[/skill][skill]dwayna's touch[/skill] good on an orders dervish

[skill]Rending Aura[/skill] Awesome in Hard Mode for taking out body blocked melees in areas like joko's (VoS bonded dervishes) and Slaver's Exile (constant stream of prot enchants).

Coloneh · Dec 14, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Its a great PvP and running skill line, but its useless in PvE.

You can't see me · Dec 14, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

[skill]mystic healing[/skill][skill]dwayna's touch[/skill] good on an orders dervish

[skill]Rending Aura[/skill] Awesome in Hard Mode for taking out body blocked melees in areas like joko's (VoS bonded dervishes) and Slaver's Exile (constant stream of prot enchants).

Still, there are just not enough skills in wind prayers that will dubb attribute points into that line. Those are some of the best skills in the line, which, is very sad.

cellardweller · Dec 14, 2007, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

Still, there are just not enough skills in wind prayers that will dubb attribute points into that line. Those are some of the best skills in the line, which, is very sad.

I'd say the same about earth prayers. The only things I'd ever bring from that line are [skill]Armor of Sanctity[/skill][skill]Ebon Dust Aura[/skill] and maybe [skill]Staggering Force[/skill] if I didn't have an SS nec for some reason.

Scythe Mastery/Mysticism is where the action is.

Terraban · Dec 14, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I'd say the same about earth prayers. The only things I'd ever bring from that line are [skill]Armor of Sanctity[/skill][skill]Ebon Dust Aura[/skill] and maybe [skill]Staggering Force[/skill] if I didn't have an SS nec for some reason.

Scythe Mastery/Mysticism is where the action is.

[skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill]?

draxynnic · Dec 14, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

[skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill]?

[skill]Sand Shards[/skill] is also incredibly amusing against mobs that think blinding you or otherwise stopping you from hitting is actually going to help them...

cellardweller · Dec 14, 2007, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

[skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill]?

Health regen only helps save you in situations where you didn't need saving. I can't think of a single non-farming build where the slot wouldn't have been better used with another skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

[skill]Sand Shards[/skill] is also incredibly amusing against mobs that think blinding you or otherwise stopping you from hitting is actually going to help them...

I think I'd rather use meladru's/wild blow as appropriate, especially considering how many of the aformentioned mobs are undead.

draxynnic · Dec 14, 2007, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I think I'd rather use melandru's/wild blow as appropriate, especially considering how many of the aformentioned mobs are undead.

Melandru's ties up your elite (and a lot of energy when used). Neither of them help against enchantments (although you could of course take a third skill as appropriate for those), and more importantly, neither of them have the potential for amusement that arises when you can actually, if the enemy mob is big enough and clustered enough, end up doing more damage on a miss...

That's not saying it can't be dealt with, but having one skill that can neutralise all forms of blocking has it's advantages, especially when you're already carrying other Earth skills on your bar such as Ebon Dust Aura.

(Idly, Vital Boon and Sig of Pious Light both also seem to be popular. I don't use them much any more myself, but they do seem to be more incentive to use Earth Prayers.)

Terraban · Dec 14, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Health regen only helps save you in situations where you didn't need saving. I can't think of a single non-farming build where the slot wouldn't have been better used with another skill.

It is also a way to help remove pressure off of your monk, and give another enchantment for Windwalker armor.

Will it save you from the 500 armor ignoring damage spike? No, but your Armor of Sanctity might not either.
Will it counter an almost infinite amount of degeneration and/or pressure attacks? Yes.

I really don't see why not to take it. My current build still manages to have EDA, and 3 attack skills including Wild Blow, and still run Mystic Regeneration. I could possibly switch it out for your mentioned Armor of Sanctity, but both have their pros and cons.

You also forgot [skill=text]Conviction[/skill], which is a pretty good skill if you don't have other armor boosters in your party.

I am pretty sure that [skill=text]Staggering Force[/skill] ranks pretty high up there in the useless earth prayers list. If the damage was changed to nearby, then it could possibly be better. The humping their leg condition for it is kind of annoying.

cellardweller · Dec 14, 2007, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

It is also a way to help remove pressure off of your monk, and give another enchantment for Windwalker armor.

Will it save you from the 500 armor ignoring damage spike? No.
Will it counter an almost infinite amount of degeneration and/or pressure attacks? Yes.

Under optimal conditions it will heal 40dps and usually only 20dps - even [skill]dwayna's touch[/skill] does better than that. There are much better enchants in the mystism line to take if you're trying to fuel WW armour, I'd even take some other earth enchants like mirage cloak before taking mystic regen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

I really don't see why not to take it. My current build still manages to have EDA, and 3 attack skills including Wild Blow, and still run Mystic Regeneration. I could possibly switch it out for your mentioned Armor of Sanctity, but both have their pros and cons.

The reason not to take it is because you only have 8 slots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

You also forgot [skill=text]Conviction[/skill], which is a pretty good skill if you don't have other armor boosters in your party.

I didn't forget it, I deliberately left it off because the condition never exists. Every party should have watch yourself, stand your ground or save yourselves somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

I am pretty sure that [skill=text]Staggering Force[/skill] ranks pretty high up there in the useless earth prayers list. If the damage was changed to nearby, then it could possibly be better. The humping their leg condition for it is kind of annoying.

With correct bodyblocking the difference between adjacent and nearby is non-existant, but the point in using it is not for the damage, it is for the weakness which is why you'd only use it when your party lacked a curses nec.

Reducing all attack damage damage against you by 2/3 > 10 pips of regen.

EDIT: Sorry I think I've derailed the thread. Forget I said anything

. Back on topic, yes wind prayers have some niche uses but are for the most part very sucky.

Terraban · Dec 14, 2007, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Under optimal conditions it will heal 40dps and usually only 20dps - even [skill]dwayna's touch[/skill] does better than that. There are much better enchants in the mystism line to take if you're trying to fuel WW armour, I'd even take some other earth enchants like mirage cloak before taking mystic regen.

You forgot to mention that you will spend roughly 50% of your time casting Dwayna's Touch, while you spend about 5% of your time casting Mystic Regeneration

Quote:

The reason not to take it is because you only have 8 slots.

And you take Armor of Sanctity as a self defense skill.

Armor of Sanctity:

Pros:

Slightly cheaper than Mystic Regen (3-4 energy every 20 seconds)
Counters unlimited low damage packets

Cons:

Cannot counter degeneration.
Monsters have to be conditioned, if not this does nothing.
Has to be renewed twice as often.
Does not count large packets of damage that well.

Mystic Regeneration

Pros:

Almost no condition, so 100% effect most of the time.
Counters pretty much all degeneration.
Has to be renewed less often than Armor of Sanctity.

Cons:

Costs more energy than Armor of Sanctity (3-4 energy every 20 seconds)
Can not counter multiple low damage packets.
Twice the time spent casting compared to Mystic Regeneration.
Also does not counter large damage packets.

Quote:

I didn't forget it, I deliberately left it off because the condition never exists. Every party should have watch yourself, stand your ground or save yourselves somewhere.

Ideally yes, but that is not always the way the cookie crumbles.

Quote:

With correct bodyblocking the difference between adjacent and nearby is non-existant, but the point in using it is not for the damage, it is for the weakness which is why you'd only use it when your party lacked a curses nec.

With "correct bodyblocking" a Bonder monk also owns. Should we all start running a bonder because of it? Just because it works in the Tank-Nuke-Heal team setup does not mean it is worthwhile, or we would all be bringing an Obsidian Tank and Bonder everywhere we went. Not to mention that Staggering Force also needs to be stripped off to be much effect.

I could also use the argument that you used against Conviction...

"I didn't forget it, I deliberately left it off because the condition never exists. Every party should have Enfeebling Blood, Enfeeble or an easier source of weakness somewhere."

Quote:

Reducing all attack damage damage against you by 2/3 > 10 pips of regen.

Nobody is arguing this point, but there are many easier, more reliable ways to weaken monsters than Staggering Force -> Strip.

Edit: After that huge wall of text, I will agree, the thread has been derailed and I apologize.

Wind Prayers is missing one thing, something to make the skills come together.
Skills like Mystic Twister and Mystic Healing could be ok, except it takes too many enchantments to make them worthwhile, and Wind Prayers happens to not have many easily maintained enchantments.
Attacker's Insight is ok, except most scythe attacks cost 5 energy anyway, which kind of makes this skill a waste of space.
All of the ways to inflict cripple, but nothing that benefits from it. If there were skills that did bonus damage to crippled enemies, or reduced damage from crippled enemies, then the crippling skills might be more practical.
Also....so many speed buffs, which are useless in most of PvE.

Syntonic · Dec 14, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Steering the conversation away from earth and back to wind. Wind prayers seems geared towards PvP. I love harrier's haste which punishes players for kiting or runnign when they are low at health along with harrier's grasp. Harrier's grasp is a bit expensive to keep up along with heart of fury but at the same time, it's really nice that you can cripple runners from a distance with a bow and then catch up to them. There's a few other skills that you might want to consider such as enchanted haste and whirling charge.

I personally prefer heart of fury over whirling charge despite the higher downtime due to it being an enchant though that also has its downsides. Onslaught is arguably better now with EotN scythe skills. I still not a big fan but onslaught also it counts as an enchant so it might be worth trying out. The problem of course is getting a deepwound with onslaught since you are pretty much delegated to wearying strike and some forms of removal (sig of malice more or less since it's a 1/4.) Unless I'm in RA or PvE, I normally take wind prayers over earth or neither.

bungusmaximus · Dec 14, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Definitely found good use for wind prayers....on my AB warrior :P. Natural healing > healing signet

~ Dan ~ · Dec 14, 2007, 09:02 AM // 09:02

The only good skills imo:

- zealous vow
- whirling charge
- natural / mystic healing
- attacker's insight
- vow of piety (well, just in some support healer build)
- featherfoot grace and harrier's grasp are ok, but other skills outclass them

Turbobusa · Dec 14, 2007, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Definitely found good use for wind prayers....on my AB warrior :P. Natural healing > healing signet

QFT.
I like harrier's haste also. Featherfoot grace is OK.
whirling charge is a little costy but also a 2in1 skill...